Six-Door Cars

March 21st, 2021
cars
While at this point we've decided what we want to do about cars, I'm still thinking about why the market for moderately larger cars is so awkward.

One issue with three-row vehicles is that the third row is hard to get into. If that row is rear-facing, like in a traditional station wagon, you get in through the rear door. If it is front facing, you either remove one of the seats from the middle row, or have a way to slide or fold them out of the way. This is awkward for the same reason that the rear seats in a two door car are awkward, and there we fix it by adding a second row of doors. Why don't we see six door cars?

Car manufacturers have made some:


Mercedes-Benz w124 six-door, source


Checker Aerobus, also produced with eight doors

You also see aftermarket conversions:

These are mostly very long cars, but it seems to me like if a manufacturer wanted to make a six door with a more restrained length they could. For example, a Honda Fit is 161" and a typical rear seat pitch is 35", so a hypothetical six-door version would be something like 196". This is long, but still well within the standard range: it's 6" shorter than the Toyota Sienna and 8" shorter than the Honda Odyssey or Chrysler Pacifica.

Overall, it looks like this is something that can be done, has been done, and hasn't been popular. Maybe I'm weird in liking the six door look?

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Comment via: facebook, lesswrong

David (4y, via fb):link

My guess is that car makers have decided that minivans are the best solution (for them) for those who regularly need to seat more than 4 people. I imagine they can charge more than for an "extended" car, and that minivans are generally classified as light trucks and thus have relaxed emissions standards. Some of this is tied to consumer preference but I bet a lot of it is really driven by our regulatory approach, or lack thereof.

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

David it doesn't have to be based on a car. You could imagine this for a three row SUV or crossover. Those aren't going to want to use sliding doors, since those indicate "minivan"

Hal (4y, via fb):link

I think I prefer this look to the sliding door you usually see on minivans.

Michael (4y, via fb):link

Hal Doors are expensive, many parts to assemble. One sliding door has got to be a lot cheaper than two hinged doors.

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

Michael I don't know; the large opening of the sliding door on a minivan is an engineering challenge

Michael (4y, via fb):link

Jeff Kaufman I think that all such sliding doors pop out before sliding, so there's a post right behind the rear end of the opening. I don't see it as an engineering challenge. And fewer parts is easier to manufacture. The post there may need to be welded of stampings of slightly thicker gauge, and the roof may have to be a slightly thicker gauge, but this adds little cost compared with many extra parts of an extra door.

Clara (4y, via fb):link

I wouldn’t call it a car, but the GEM e6 has this design, and is a very direct extension of the e4

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

Interesting! https://gem.polaris.com/en-us/e6/specs/

Where do people use vehicles like this?

Rob (4y, via fb):link

If we're stretching the definition of car... https://www.carlogos.org/.../best-6-seater-side-by-sides... Some of these are quite affordable.

Clara (4y, via fb):link

Jeff Kaufman they’re popular in towns built around golf courses. In MA they’re licensed as low-speed EVs and subject to specific speed and road limits. We used them at Optimus, with the goal of transport within private roads such as industrial parks, retirement communities, and college campuses.

Becca (4y, via fb):link

My first thought is to wonder how 6-door cars in this form factor would perform in crash tests.

Joe (4y, via fb):link

Jeff, I wonder if there is a safe way to add a 3rd seat in the front row. This would solve the extra door problem. Cars used to have front bench seats. I know they were unsafe.

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

Joe trucks are often three across in front. The last US sedan with a front bench was the 2013 Impala.

What made them unsafe?

Joe (4y, via fb):link

Not sure. I think it's hard to put in airbags and other standard safety features. Not sure why a rear 3rd seat would be ok. Maybe because there isnt a dashboard to hit your head on.

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

Is it hard to put airbags 3 across? Or is it just that people mostly prefer bucket seats in front so it isn't worth engineering three airbags for something that mostly wouldn't be used?

Joe (4y, via fb):link

Maybe both

Wang (4y, via fb):link

modern tricks that have front bench seats don't provide air bags for the center passenger.

Don't know that this is an engineering limitation

I think probably it's just that they're not required so nobody bothers to do them.

Leah (4y, via fb):link

I'm pretty sure I remember front bench seats going away before airbags were mandatory or especially common.

Todd (4y, via fb):link

I thought you explained this pretty well already in https://www.jefftk.com/p/the-cost-of-a-sixth-seat, or do you think this is a different problem?

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

Todd that explains why there's a large jump in cost when you get above five seats, but not why no one makes an SUV with three rows of doors.

Bill (4y, via fb):link

In the late 1960s I knew a family that owned an 8-door station wagon: we lived in the same town at the time, and one of their 20+ children (all full siblings) was in my class.

My family moved to a different town 30 miles away in 1971. Five years after
ward my high school Spanish teacher mentioned that his wife's uncle's family was very large and came to family reunions in an 8-door station wagon. I asked some questions, and learned that it was the same family.

I do not know whether their car was built that way originally or whether it was an aftermarket conversion.

I also do not know what safety features were built in. Seat belts for all seating positions were mandated starting in 1968, but the car may have been built before then.

Josh (4y, via fb):link

This is reminding me of the idea of something like an SUV having a roof which could slope down (like a hatchback), if there were only people in the front seat. (Or would be flat like a regular SUV, and fit more people). Which should reduce drag, but would presumably be really difficult structurally.

J_Thomas_Moros (4y, via lw):link

I doubt the lack of 6-door cars has much to do with aesthetics. Doors and tight door seals are some of the more complex and expensive portions of the car body. Doors also pose challenges for crash safety as you have a large opening in the car body weakening the main body's structural integrity in an accident. I suspect that the reason there are so few cars with 6 doors is the extra cost of manufacturing cars. That would lead to increased car costs. Most purchasers don't value the extra convenience of the additional doors enough relative to the added price. Any company producing such a car would find a very small market which might make it not worth it to the manufacturer.

Viliam (4y, via lw):link

Long cars may be difficult to park, if most parking slots are the size of the average car. (No idea how much that applies to USA.)

That might be an argument in favor of your proposed "six-door but not too long", unless it is the case that any car with six doors is already too long and the extra few inches don't significantly change the outcome. Like, you get less space for luggage, but finding a parking place remains nearly impossible anyway.

(My wife loved having a tiny car while we didn't have kids, precisely because parking it was extremely easy.)

AnthonyC (4y, via lw):link

I recently switched from a crossover SUV (Nissan Rogue Sport) to a pickup (Sierra 2500 with crew cab and 8' bed). It is about 22 ft long, and yes, it is both harder to park and usually unable to fit fully in a standard parking spot. It overhangs by only about 2 ft usually, though, so if it really is feasible to make a six door vehicle that is about 200" long, it would still fit.

Yoav Ravid (4y, via lw):link

What if it was just one big door? That would treat the problem J_Thomas_Moros raised. It wouldn't work with a regular door, it would be too long and awkward. I don't think it would work well with sliding doors. But, I think it can work with doors that open upwards, like the Tesla model X:

AnthonyC (4y, via lw):link

In most situations where people need more seats, those seats are primarily for kids, not the people buying the vehicle or other adults, and that makes the issue of every row having its own doors less important. Your kids just get used to climbing over and around things, and it's no big deal. The people consistently buying vehicles for more adults are mainly fleets buying vans and limos.

Also: I know you mentioned this in the original post in terms of car vs SUV, but adding length, doors, and weight will drop fuel efficiency, which may cause legal issues. Maybe not in the US, IDK, but car company platforms are global, and other countries have much stricter standards. This may make it just not worth it for what they expect the market size to be.

I wouldn't be too surprised if we started seeing vehicles like that in the 2030s though, once self-driving vehicles become common enough (I still think it's unlikely, just much less unlikely). People and companies have been talking for a long time about how much design freedom not needing a driver gives you, and how you can make reconfigurable interiors. Since it's likely that ridesharing and other fleet vehicles will make up a larger proportion of cars in an autonomous vehicle world, it's much more feasible to have a few vehicles around for less common use cases. Last-mile delivery automation product developers have come up with a lot of concepts that include vehicles with multiple independently locking compartments; it's very plausible a six door vehicle of some sort could reuse such a platform.

Lisa (4y, via fb):link

We had a wood-sided station wagon when I was a kid. There were six kids- myself, 2 sisters and 3 foster brothers. I remember those two seats in the back. I'm sure they weren't very safe, and it's not like cars had seatbelts yet. Oh my! I sound ancient!

Gerald Monroe (4y, via lw):link

How is a minivan not the optimized solution to this problem? One long sliding door, 3 rows, good fuel efficiency and safety and handling. And a plug in hybrid. It's what waymo went with.
.I am not saying it's the best possible but it's an optimized design to solve this problem.

jefftk (4y, via lw):link

A minivan loses a 2nd-row seat for access to the second row.

Gerald Monroe (4y, via lw):link

So its 2 passengers first and second row, 3 the third? 7 total? Or parents and 4-5 children? That's going to handle most use cases.

You know how they say in software and engineering in general to focus your resources on the 90 percent case.

Dan (4y, via fb):link

I don't think any of the answers I've seen here or on LW can be right, although I find it interesting that the very implausible answers showed up in both places. I wonder what makes these answers seemingly compelling when they seem (IMO) not even remotely plausible.

Cost? If doors were so expensive, there would be a significant difference between the cost of 2-door and 4-door cars of the make & model and there generally isn't when you can price out a similar configuration (and more cars would copy the Hyundai Veloster design, which only has a rear door on one side).

Also, cars have more than an order of magnitude variation in price but a very small variation in the number of doors. You can get engines that have nearly 1000 HP, cars with sub 3s 0-60 time, car interior options that add more to the cost of a car than the MSRP of an economy car, etc., but somehow adding two more doors is so expensive that it's impossible to do? You can buy cars that have plenty of features that are useless from a practical standpoint that cost a lot more than two extra doors.

Crashing testing basically has the same problems as the above (you'd expect to see a difference in crash testing in existing cars) and, on top of that, if you look at the crash tests that are actually done (IIHS, NHSTA, Euro NCAP), there shouldn't be a major difference in scores with the addition of more rear doors (the one exception to this might be Volvo, which runs a number of crash tests that aren't done by testing agencies, but they're a niche manufacturer that has very low marketshare and that can't account for this).

Additionally, you could use a door the size of the door on a 2-door car and have a 4-door vehicle with better rear seat access.

People really seem to be underestimating the impact of aesthetics. Automotive trends are frequently driven by aesthetics (e.g., the trend towards larger wheels with shorter sidewalls, which is very close to being strictly worse than having 90s-height sidewalls, which give you better fuel efficiency, lower cost, better acceleration, better braking, higher resistance to wheel damage, and a better ride, at the cost very slightly slower turn-in; I don't think tiny sidewalls really make sense for non-aesthetic reasons on any car except maybe for the Civic Type R, and even there, it only even maybe makes sense due to some really unusual design constraints on the vehicle).

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

I don't know how much it can be aesthetics, though, since you can make a door on a car almost invisible (like on some crew cabinet pickups)?

Jeff Kaufman (4y, via fb):link

Or the rear doors on a Honda Element

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