Contra: Avoiding Sore Arms |
April 6th, 2022 |
| contra |
During the swing, the dancers need to be held together or they'll fall over backwards. That's not because they're leaning back (stay upright!) but because spinning gives you centrifugal force. The effort of holding the couple together needs to be shared, but often it ends up falling entirely to the Lark's right arm. In a typical ballroom position swing, the Raven's left arm is behind the Lark's right shoulder, with the other two hands joined:
standard "ballroom position" swing
It's easy to see how the Lark's right arm and wrist get overworked here: that's the hand that's in the best position to hold the partners together. The Raven's left hand can also help hold the couple together, however, if they exert a gentle pressure and don't just rest their hand on the Lark's shoulder.
Sometimes people dancing Raven who learned a different style of dance will put their left hand on top of the Lark's right arm:
unsupportive ballroom swing
This is not a good fit for contra, because it puts all the work on the Lark.
Some dancers prefer a more supportive swing, where instead of making a point with your free hands you place them on the arm just above the elbow:
arm-hold ballroom swing
This allows both dancers to use both of their arms to hold the couple together. One advantage of this position is that it is similar enough to standard ballroom position that a Lark with a sore arm can suggest it and switch to it pretty quickly.
If the couple is a bit more friendly or wants an even more supportive hold, another option is to move the Raven's right hand to the Lark's back and hold each other symmetrically:
symmetrical hold
When dancing Raven, how do I know if I'm helping enough?
Ask! Talk to a friend or anyone you happen to be dancing with, and ask them whether they are feeling a good amount of support from you.
Consider dancing the Lark role, if you don't already. You'll get a better sense for what good support feels like by dancing with a range of Ravens with different approaches.
When dancing Lark, what can I do if I'm not getting enough support?
Ask! Let them know that you could use a bit more help. If their hand isn't in a good position to do that, consider pointing and showing them where would feel better.
Consider switching to the arm-hold swing, to spread the load across both of your arms.
Slow down: the work necessary to hold together is much higher at higher speeds (F ∝ v²).
Gently decrease how much you are supporting them. Either they will increase their share of the work, or you will naturally slow down.
Thanks to Harris and Thom for modeling!
Jeff Kaufman thanks for your detailed analysis!
This is really interesting! When I dance lark, it's my right shoulder that gets sore--but only if a raven puts too much weight on their left arm pushing down on my right arm!
(ravens are follow-positioned, larks are lead positioned?)
[edit: this was wrong] Erica Sorry, no, the other way around!
Jeff Kaufman -- wait, what? I thought larks lead and ravens follow? (during moves where lead and follow are terms that make sense, not all the time)
Erica robins/ravens are on the Right, Larks are on the Left
Erica sorry, you were right the first time! Thanks Michael !
Perhaps the notion that there is a lead and a follow in contra is leading to the issue of the larks supporting more of the weight?
I love symmetrical holds in general!
Equal weight and proper frame is how the ballroom swing move is taught to beginners. Contra would sure benefit from that basic swing lesson.
Thank you! I'd really love to see more people talking about this fair share and actually dancing that way!
One observation I'd like to add is that the imbalance becomes a vicious cycle: someone dancing Lark who has gotten a tired right arm from partners repeatedly not holding their weight tends to wrap their right arm further around. This means that they no longer have a firm "right back of shoulder" for the Raven to hold onto. When dancing as a Raven who likes to hold my fair share of the weight, I have occasionally come across a swing partner who recognizes what's going on, grins, squares their shoulder, and says "wow, you know how to hold a frame!" And the other 95% of the time I find myself attempting to hold some sort of weight against a sloped, often sweat-slippery shoulder.
Clara exactly this! (Have we talked about this?)
Clara's frame +100
Excellent
If a raven leans back in a painful way, I let go - to protect my shoulder. It works.
In general, I am able to adapt to most raven swings without issue, but what does cause issues of soreness is when a raven doesn't turn their hips. I find that when a partner's hips are parallel, but offset, the swing is best \ \ , but this \ / does not work well.
I've noticed that some larks that get tired arms are trying to hold their partner too close, so the raven leans back and away, further exhausting the lark.
Slowing down and going to the arm-hold swing are still the correct responses.
Two things that I aim for, since I regularly dance both roles, and regularly find that people are leaning too far back and I am supporting them (and very much hurting my back). One thing I do is release the "pointy" hand completely. It forces people to find balance with just scapula to scapula holds. Another thing I say is to dance over your own feet, support yourself. Oh, a third thing, bend your knees a bit more. This is a never ending issue for me and others. Thanks for bringing it up.
Not sure why, but I don’t usually experience *that* problem as a Lark; instead I end up with a soreness in the shoulder and sometimes the upper back.
In an asymmetrical "ballroom" swing, which used to be the standard but may no longer be, the things that I know of that can make my right arm tired/sore are: raven not giving weight at all (which means that I am holding my arm UP with no assistance), raven leaning to their left, raven pressing down on my right arm, raven arching their back, raven twisting their body to their right.
There are some positions that will cause my wrist to be bent too far, which can cause pain. I haven't worked out the details of what can cause that.
There are other things that will interfere with the swing working properly, but not hurt me.
All the above refer to a "standard ballroom hold", which is asymmetrical, and which I feel that Jeff has described incorrectly. I do not want my partner placing their hand behind my shoulder and applying pressure. I *do* want my partner placing their hand on top of my arm or shoulder, depending on their height, but not pressing down -- the weight of their arm is acceptable and proper, any additional weight is not and will hurt.
Having my arm in tension, which Jeff describes as causing pain, does not cause pain for me. I do not need my partner to "share the effort" as he describes.
None of what I've said applies to deliberately symmetrical swings, of which there are a number of styles, and which I also enjoy.
Michael I could see that being good for you because usually you’re taller and stronger than everyone And that’s the center
Aloysius—yes, height differences affect which type of swing is comfortable. There are swing holds that I can’t do at all with my typical partners.
One of my favorite symmetrical positions is when each dancer puts their right hand on the other's back, and they join left hands over their heads. It's pretty flirty, and I mostly recall it coming up when dancing with friends who I knew pretty well.
Does it have a name? TSOR didn't turn up anything obvious.
Josh A couple of DC dancers compiled this list a long time ago. I didn't look to see if your swing was on there, but it should be, it's certainly been around that long.
https://www.prismnet.com/.../articles/swing-positions.html
I had seen that page! It's either 10 or 21, depending on where the right hands are, but that list didn't seem to give the position a name.
I have no idea if it's a "good" thing or not, but if my right wrist starts hurting after lots of Lark-style swings, I sort of "choke up" on the swing, supporting more from the forearm and elbow/bicep, with a straighter wrist.
Nora Yes! Before I figured out that I could take the weight off my right hand with a two arm swing, there was a period of time that I could only dance a whole dance with exceptionally narrow women who were about the same height as I was, so that I could take the full weight with my forearm, leaving my wrist and hand free.
I just find that most people haven't learned to swing properly. When I teach a swing, I emphasize that support is the responsibility of both people. A good demonstration of proper form is in order.
BTW, I think we have fully transitioned from raven to robin for the role on the right.
Perry How are you defining "we"? The dancers/ callers/ organizers in your area? It certainly doesn't seem to be everyone in the contra dance world, given the half dozen people in this thread who just used "raven."
This is something that has been discussed a lot on contra forums since well before the pandemic, and every caller for about a year before the pandemic I have seen used robins, due to usage of the word raven in an Indigenous culture in the Pacific NW. It's been a long time since I have heard any caller use raven. Most dancers in my area are still happy with ladies and gents.
Perry I think this is probably regional. In our part of the country, I think I hear Raven more often, though I do hear both?
Jeff, I appreciate your queries - they’re useful, and community building
Monday one partner was pushing their hand on my shoulder with a lot of weight after the third swing I said can you please not do that it’s hurting my shoulder she was also holding so tightly in the star I couldn’t get out of the star I explained it pressure was released by the 10th swing and the music got more exciting went back to pressing on my shoulder and holding on tight in the star
When the swing is taught at the dance there’s not usually a lot of emphasis on style the emphasis is on the figure When Andy Taylor teaches the emphasis is on things like support your own weight don’t make other people support more than their own weight
I think your list of holds for the swing is very incomplete. In particular, there is the two arm swing, which is sort of like what you show as a symmetric hold, except that Lark is holding both arms below Raven's shoulders, even though Lark is traditionally more commonly taller than Raven. In the two arm swing, Lark is still holding most of the weight, which they cannot do easily in the symmetric hold, because there's no good grip when Lark's left hand is on Raven's shoulder. This two arm swing is used by a Lark who simply cannot take the force on their right forearm or wrist or hand. This does not require convincing Raven to actively take some of the tension. I've been through periods when my hand arthritis was bad enough that I needed to do the two arm swing, and it worked quite well. Sometimes the Raven would be concerned about the apparent increase in intimacy, even though you really don't have to hold people that close in such a two arm swing -- it usually sufficed to just make a comment like "I can't carry all the weight with one hand".
Michael it's not meant to be a complete list! But yes, the swing you're describing is also a good one
The traditional male-male symmetric hold, is that each man uses his right arm as in the ballroom hold, and then reaches his left arm down around outside the other man's right arm, and the men join left hands underneath. I don't know that there's any point in using this hold rather than the symmetric hold you describe. It's possible that this traditional male-male symmetric hold is more stable, and allows greater force in the swing.
Quebecois square dancers do a barrel hold swing where the raven/robin's arms are above and the Lark's arms are bellow and I'm not a huge fan. For one it doesn't allow as much space between upper bodies as the ballroom swing if this is someone I'm less comfortable with. For two if it's someone that I'm comfortable with the position makes flourishes a lot harder, even if I have consent to do them
However I have not tried other symmetrical holds and some of them might allow for what I like without hurting he Lark's arm